How do you lay the foundation for fully digital capital markets? How far has work actually come in integrating a central bank digital currency into efforts towards tokenization?
And how is Switzerland pushing the industry forward in the next evolution of financial markets?
In Part 2 of this RULEMATCH Spot On episode, Ian Simpson and David Newns, Head of the SIX Digital Exchange (SDX) discuss the different ways that Switzerland has played a leading role in the development of the digital assets industry globally – with the support of the Swiss National Bank and others and with close input from FINMA.
Episode show notes:
(1:57) – Project Helvetia and why “equivalence” is a victory for Switzerland
(5:59) – The evolution of banks’ capabilities with digital assets
(9:24) – How banks are opening their minds to new use cases
(10:38) – Growth in number of member banks on SDX
(11:50) – Banks building or offering custody services for digital assets
(13:02) – Details on custody setup on SDX
(14:12) – The chicken-egg topic of dealing with crypto and digital assets
(16:13) – Looking at SDX’s crypto custody and repo services
(17:26) – How custody will enable crypto collateral mobilization from banks on SDX
(20:49) – Why collateral and lending with digital assets is critical in capital markets
(21:59) – Regulatory advancements (in Europe and Switzerland) and their implications
(23:51) – The significance of USDC/EURC MiCA approval
(24:42) – The challenges of DLT securities in Switzerland
(27:57) – Switzerland’s “central” role in global CBDC projects
(33:07) – Why Switzerland is still “winning the digital assets race”
(35:34) – A “sea change” in digital assets moving things forward
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Episode transcript:
Ian:
But Switzerland is still winning the race…
David:
So despite all of this, so also clearly everyone is carrying out POCs and experiments.
And then the ECB has three experiments around this as well.
Ian:
But nobody has built exactly what we have built in Switzerland.
David:
As far as a Western developed economy, there’s nowhere else in the world where you have security transactions in wholesale CBDC, where in a production environment you have the central bank issuing tokenized central bank money.
And the fact that they’ve now made that statement that this will…they’ll continue to support this and issue central bank money on chain in two years, expand the scope, include more members…
That’s a huge statement.
START OF FULL EPISODE:
Ian:
I’m your host Ian Simpson and today we bring you the second instalment of my conversation with David Newns, who is the Head of the SIX Digital Exchange (SDX).
In Part 1, we discussed the development of SDX and its focus on digital securities and some of the “under the hood” aspects of SDX, including its distributed central securities depository and the trade-offs between “precision settlement” and post-trade settlement with netting as well as the need for proper regulation and a riskless payment currency for wholesale settlement between banks.
In Part 2, we discuss the ongoing development of SDX and wider topics and developments in Switzerland and beyond, with the involvement of SDX, the Swiss National Bank and many other players.
David:
So here in Switzerland, there’s been a multi-year project, five-year plus now, called Helvetia, which has been the SNB’s initiative to explore this whole concept of tokenized central bank money.
So having issuing central bank cash on chain with Helvetia 1, looked at, technologically was it feasible?
And that was a BIS, SDX, SNB initiative.
Helvetia 2 involved a swathe of market participants, large and small banks. And then that proved out that operationally and from a regulated perspective and from the perspective of integration into core banking systems, so actually watching the flows- go all the way through from tokens being issued to settlement occurring and being recorded in banks, internal systems.
You could achieve that with central bank digital currency.
And then Helvetia 3, which was a landmark in capital markets globally, was the first time that central bank money was ever issued on chain in a production environment for the purposes of settling transactions.
We have now settled over 700 million francs worth of transactions on SDX in wholesale central bank digital currency, which that in and of itself is, it puts Switzerland at the very forefront of the adoption of digital assets on a global basis. So that level of innovation is really quite staggering.
And it doesn’t stop there because two weeks or so ago the central bank announced that they were going to prolong the support on the CBDC on SDX for a minimum of two years with a mechanism for rolling that on forwards and that they will expand the participants to anybody who is eligible for an interbank clearing account at the SNB and is a member of SDX and in addition over time increase the scope of functionality so we can address all the other pieces.
Because what we have now is rather limited in scope in terms of what we can do with the CBDC to all the other kinds of operations that get conducted in CBDC and capital markets on FMI.
So that, actually, kind of catapults Switzerland not just to sort of stay at the forefront, but it’s a huge leap forward.
And there really is no other developed Western economy that stands at that point in the adoption of digital assets.
And if I go back to that structure that we’re putting together, where we have this, the right regulation, a regulated blockchain, we have interoperability with the traditional infrastructure, we have a network of member banks on that platform who are carrying out activities.
The sort of the third leg to a stool was going to be the riskless settlement asset being available on chain, so that you now built up this infrastructure – this architecture which is going to be strong and stable enough to be able to then facilitate the use cases that we are all excited about.
So we’ve now achieved equivalence.
Hooray.
So with all those pieces in place, you absolutely can do everything that you can do on traditional infrastructure, but now using blockchain and tokenized instruments.
Again, nowhere else in the world has this been achieved except for here in Switzerland.
And I think that the Swiss financial center should be appropriately proud and also excited about this opportunity that it’s availed itself of.
It really will, I think, ultimately be a massive differentiation for the Swiss financial center when it comes to its place in the world.
Ian:
Going back to a topic that I wanted to come to earlier with the members on SDX and working with this infrastructure, obviously they’ve given lots of input in how it’s built, but then they themselves have also needed to build up their capabilities to interact with this, to be able to read this decentralized CSD, and then also to work with custody, right?
How has that process gone and where are members and maybe banks more generally in adapting and getting ready for this next digitalization wave?
David:
So, it’s a very interesting question because it also has to an observation that this is, or an implication that this actually is a heavy lift.
And I would say that it is a heavy lift. We’re talking about a whole set of new technologies a bank is not familiar with.
Now, if I look at the first part, the first members we had of SDX, so our pioneers, UBS, ZKB and Credit Suisse, who came on board back in 2021.
Obviously, at that point, but we’re both learning and typically, this was their first experience of any interaction around blockchain technology being used in this particular way because we’re kind of unique in the world and still to a great extent are.
So that hasn’t changed a vast amount.
What you need to do as a member when it comes to accommodating this technology is ensure that all of your business support functions get comfortable with it.
And that is quite a significant lift.
So from a risk and legal…and compliance and technology perspective, you need to have these guys get comfortable, adjust or accommodate digital assets, tokenization, blockchain technology, cryptographically secured assets, management of private keys, all of that needs to be, and then integration into the core banking system.
These are all massive lifts, but either in terms of people or technology.
They all need to work to accommodate this technology into their control environment and technology environment and so on.
So one of the reasons why it takes us quite a long time to onboard a member is because the workshops we need to carry out with representatives from these firms are pretty extensive and very involved.
Because this is the first time that they’ve encountered this very frequent, very often, that’s first time they’ve encountered this sort of thing.
What you end up with afterwards is now you have enabled the capacity within that member, within that bank, for them to take that learning and that understanding and that technology and apply it to other contexts outside of SDX and SIX.
So I think that it’s an incredibly beneficial exercise.
For us, on the one hand, we were very concerned that clearly this is a big lift for a bank to start talking to actually get their hands around this.
What we didn’t understand, and the feedback we got from the banks was what a valuable lesson that actually is for them because it gives them this massive expansion of capability and understanding and capacities within their organization that they can apply to other contexts.
It’s another way that we – that SDX and Six Group – has played a role within the Swiss financial center is issuing digital bonds.
And I don’t really think that we’ll even…
We’ll stop marketing the fact that we have issuances of digital bonds when they happen anymore because it’s becoming par for the course. When you stop talking about it, it is a massive day, I think, because it’s become commonplace.
And that’s really because the members, the community here has reached a degree of sophistication and understanding that this has become something which is every day for them.
That is not the case in other jurisdictions.
And I think that capability can be, as I said, can be transferred to other contexts and it’s a capacity that is going to benefit the entire Swiss financial centre because now we’ve moved to, that was three banks back then, we more than tripled our membership last year.
So we ended last year with 13 members.
We should at least double it again this year.
And that will also include bringing on our first US banks, more international members.
We…Commerzbank was the first international member that we onboarded at the end of last year. We also…and they were also the issuer agent for the World Bank bond.
So we’ve really kind of crossed a- I think – a chasm in terms of the number of, and the kind of members that we’re now onboarding to the platform.
But if you look down the list of banks in Switzerland, all the top banks are now onboarded onto SDX and then the next tier and probably the next tier as well.
That again represents a capability in the regulated capital market space in Switzerland that hitherto was only within the non-regulated sort of “Crypto Valley context.”
That’s where that understanding, now that understanding has spread to the regulated sector as well, which I think is a huge benefit for Switzerland.
Ian:
When we talk just about custody, that was one question that came up in my mind. banks always face that “build or buy” kind of conundrum, right?
And yeah, it takes a long time to build up the internal processes and understanding of things. Then when it comes to custody and handling, there’s many companies working in the cryptocurrency custody space, some also working in the tokenized securities space and in some cases those capabilities cross over.
Do you think banks will outsource some of that capability to other companies? Will some of those banks turn their capabilities into a service for other banks?
How do you think about it?
David:
I think all of the above, yeah. I think it depends on the organization and its appetite for providing different kinds of service. And it’s history.
I mean, it could well be that it builds up a competence and gets excited about actually pursuing commercial activities represented by digital asset custody.
In the context of SDX, the wallet infrastructure is integrated into the nodes that they run so that they simultaneously host the nodes, they run the nodes – also manage the wallets, they manage the private keys in the wallets.
That’s actually a requirement of our members.
They do not outsource back to us, for instance, because legally they have to manage their own private keys.
So far, as far as I’m aware, none of them have outsourced that service to, that requirement to a third party.
Now, in the future, when we’re talking about digital assets more broadly and including custodying of security tokens or governance tokens of cryptocurrencies in that context aware these tokens are from they represent holdings on public chains and there are now third-party custody platforms that you could potentially leverage that or third -party custodians that you could use your sub custody and so on.
I think that yes, it’ll be a variety of different approaches will be taken by banks as to whether they choose to outsource or insource that activity.
Ian:
So, some people have said, and you talked about it a little bit earlier, there’s a lot of innovation happening in the crypto space, and then you learn from that and apply the lessons.
Some people have said, well, those who maybe offer cryptocurrencies and trade cryptocurrencies today will be some of the first that move into tokenized securities in a more regulated capital markets standpoint.
Do you think that’s fair to say or is it not necessarily the case or is there going to be learnings that some banks take from here and apply here or not necessarily?
David:
I think that it’s certainly very helpful to have the experience, mentioned before, of what it means to leverage this technology in the context of SDX and digital securities.
That will certainly, I think, put you into a more comfortable position because you have expertise in-house about that.
To your point about custody as well in this context, I can see that in the short term, certainly the demand for using third-party custodians is going to be extremely high.
Because even though we need you to do custody of your private keys and so on for digital securities, the complexity of running custody for a multiplicity of coins, that gets really significant really quickly because they’re all a bit different and they all have different requirements, especially when it comes to coins that have governance processes built into them where you expect to vote on certain matters associated with the chain and how you do, you need to do that by the custody platform.
There’s a lot of changes that need to be accommodated to actually facilitate that.
If your customers are asking for new coins and the processes that you need to go through can be very heavy in terms of determining whether you should include that, which is one of the reasons why…
So we do provide crypto custody-as-a-service to our members as well outside of our FMI structure.
So if I move and look at our cryptocurrency offering specifically, that is very much orientated around a custody offering.
And there’s two areas I think are really interesting.
One is this getting your hands around “crypto custody” is a challenge for an organization.
So here is an institutional grade custody solution built on top of Fireblocks.
It’s a hybrid solution in that we also – we manage the operations related to the private keys on that platform, which sets it apart from other providers of custody where those private key operations are still managed on cloud very frequently rather than on-prem on technology that we actually own and operate ourselves as SIX Group, which is much more akin in many ways to us managing the enormous vault that we keep real gold in, right?
We’re good at looking after things that are incredibly valuable, where processes and controls are absolutely critical.
So we have that as a service, but also historically since the CSD is also essentially a custody platform.
The need that we see based upon how we see the CSD being used for, as we mentioned before about collateral mobility – the CSD on the traditional infrastructure has innumerable sets of different kinds of services.
But one of them is the “tripartite repo service” where you as a customer manage the collateral frequently that you have under custody at SIX SIS to manage credit lines with other platforms.
Now, with platforms that you then trade on – in the context of some of our customers, the collateral that is being deposited is collateral from their customers.
They want to be able to keep an eye on the collateral that their customers are depositing with them, so they can then extend credit lines to those customers, enable them to trade on third -party platforms.
In the context of crypto, those third-party platforms are typically crypto exchanges.
And in the context of crypto, the customers of that, of the consumer of that service, the collateral management service, those customers are frequently crypto natives.
And oddly enough, a lot of their collateral is digital, not securities.
So you have the situation where this is a facility which traditionally we’ve been doing for years in the traditional world of helping customers manage collateral to extend credit lines.
But in this context of crypto, where credit lines are everything when it comes to transacting on platforms, if that collateral is digital, then you might have a challenge.
But because SDX has a crypto custody platform, we can take in that crypto custody and immobilize it on our custody platform, represent that collateral inside SIS’s existing collateral cockpit so that within one view, a customer, market participant, can see collateral – whether it is traditional securities or crypto – and manage that effectively to ensure that they completely comfortable and managing credit lines in the most effective way possible in that tripartite repo context to enable the maximum credit lines to be enabled between their customer and that trading platform.
So that another example of interoperability and I think something that’s just kind of rather unique in this space and something where an FMI can play a really interesting role because it’s extending its traditional role again into new markets in this case into crypto because of its ability to provide regulated trusted infrastructure from a party which traditionally has done this as their bread and butter.
Ian:
Interesting. I could see that being a very interesting development in the space. Again something not so, shall we say, sexy as far as innovation, something in the capital markets that is very, very…
David:
In capital markets, this facility drives capital markets.
I mean, your ability to manage credit lines so that you can actually trade in the first place is absolutely critical.
You do that by posting collateral. If you can only post a subset of the collateral that you have available to you because half of it is, or more of it, is crypto, then that’s inefficient. Whereas if you can also include crypto in that, we extend the ability to provide that to do external credit line.
More trading can occur in that context of regulation of safety, specifically everything that the institutional world requires to conduct these activities.
Ian:
Then we could imagine even more crypto foundations, people with these kinds of assets, high net worth individuals and so on, flock into Switzerland and take an advantage of this.
David:
Exactly, because we know that again some of those foundations now manage, they hold both crypto and traditional securities in their portfolios so they can again leverage that entire set of instruments for the purposes of activity trading.
Ian:
Let’s go back to the topic of regulation, not to go too deep and heavy into it. MiCA just came online, so to say, in the last week or so, but before we get there.
There’s also been some advancements in Swiss DLT law in the last few years.
What do you think about that and how would that apply or not apply to what SDX is doing or wants to do in the future?
David:
So those two bits of regulation are interesting.
I think MiCA going live very recently – in terms of coming into law – that I think is of enormous significance.
The fact that you now have the world’s second largest economy with effective, sensible (for the most part) regulation around crypto assets.
And again, specifically, it’s crypto.
It isn’t digital securities.
There, there’s still a little bit of a hole in terms of cross-jurisdictional regulation.
Or basically, there isn’t any cross-jurisdictional regulation in the EU that covers digital securities, which is an interesting fact in and of itself.
And what we’re going to see is, again, that’s a catalyst to adoption and to the institutional space when it comes to participating in the crypto universe, as it were, with that as an asset class.
So it’s, again, different to leveraging blockchain to add efficiencies and open new capabilities within the existing capital markets.
It’s like it’s a new economy as it were.
It’s like encountering a new country and then being able to actually invest in that country’s economy.
And the things I find exciting this year have been, yes, MiCA.
And a good example of something that’s already happened, which is I think again, a sort of a milestone is the fact that Circle – for USDC and EURC – was granted a license, an e-money operator license earlier this week.
So congratulations to Jeremy, Dante and team for achieving that world first.
I think that’s really significant.
I think as significant as Switzerland actually extending its CBDC – essentially on a path to full production.
And that will act as a catalyst, I think, for broader adoption because once you have that sort of regulatory certainty then you can build on that.
Ian:
And regarding the Swiss regulation, there’s a DLT securities…
David:
So I think really innovative…
The challenge that we have with DLT securities and I think that’s one of the reasons why the market isn’t sort of swinging over to DLT securities like any pace, is that?
It doesn’t really address the sort of the UX issues as people refer to them.
One of the benefits, and I’ve got to go back to this notion of interoperability…
If, as an investor, to hold a kind of an instrument requires that you accommodate, embrace, implement an entirely new kind of infrastructure.
And here we’re talking about wallets and connecting those wallets to public chains and then managing your private keys in those wallets.
As an institutional investor, that is an enormous lift and something that at the moment is not easily facilitated by your custodians, except for in a small number of cases.
I think in the future that will change as custody platforms either get provided by third parties such as ourselves to banks or the banks themselves ultimately roll out their own custody platforms to make the process of holding those securities more seamless to the underlying investor.
Because what you don’t want to do is just make it more difficult and add risk to that underlying investor’s world.
They want to focus on what they’re good at, which is determining what assets they want to hold in their portfolios and managing those assets as effectively as possible.
They don’t want to be worrying about implementing and managing wallets and keys.
Digital securities being natively digital on public chain are a bit challenging to consume at this point in time.
That’s the intermediated securities that are more traditional, the way that right now the majority of value that’s represented in terms of digital securities is being held, has been issued and being held in Switzerland.
But I do think it’s really interesting step forward.
There is some questions around how as an institutional client, you might hold that.
I see that being a bit problematic in terms of the DLT security is meant, it should be considered a security under the law, but it’s a bit in contradiction to the BIS’s treatment of crypto assets, which says that permissionless tokens are crypto assets and again, and should be treated essentially the same as a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin.
So as a bank holding that asset on your balance sheet will incur a 1250% capital charge, which makes it very uninteresting as an instrument to hold on your balance sheet.
Ian:
That’s a topic we’ve covered with a couple of guests already, the capital requirements. I think it’s not going to go away and hasn’t quite gotten cleared up or solved in that sense.
Let’s, as we move towards the end of the session, just talk about in the general context, and you talked about it before, Switzerland being very much at the forefront and everything that you’ve built at SDX really set in the standard very high for the rest of the world.
I had a conversation briefly with Thomas Moser from the SNB just about how other central banks look to the SNB to be involved in these bigger, broader global projects, which I think he and they are quite proud of.
Is there really mobilization based on what you’ve done at SDX to replicate this and build interoperability across jurisdictions and other places? And how is Switzerland positioned in that?
David:
98% of central banks around the world, according to that WEF study, the report that came out in April, which I thought was really good, by the way – and not just because we were heavily involved in being asked lots of questions about that on a wholesale CBDCs.
So 98% of the world’s central banks are conducting experiments in central bank digital currencies.
For all the reasons I mentioned earlier.
I mean, it’s that whole, if the world goes tokenized, they need to have something that is tokenized central bank money for all these reasons. there are other use cases.
But essentially, what we’re seeing as well is a wholesale CBDC is really being focused on I think more and more this year.
It feels that the whole retail CBDC thing is kind of dying away a bit especially for developed Western economies the eurozone. it is a bit different. I think they’re still pursuing digital euro with some degree of, asort of tenacity
But with this if you look at the plethora of CBDC projects that exist around the world today – it’s really, really remarkable.
So we have not only, again, that almost every central bank in the world is doing some sort of experimentation or pilot or POC in CBDC, but you have these super national initiatives that have either ones that have been going on for quite some time or that have been recently announced.
Here in Switzerland we have, we did some pretty substantial super national activities already.
So we did Project Jura, which was between the central bank, between the Swiss National Bank and the Banque de France conducting wholesale cross border payments in CBDC – again, leveraging the SDX platform to facilitate that.
There’s been Project mBridge in which is another BIS initiative which is CBDC cross border between the UAE and HKMA and China.
Recently Saudi Arabia joined that initiative.
There’s some enormous number of observers as well to that. I think Thailand is involved as well.
Then more recently Project Agora, which is the BIS’s most recent initiative in the space, which is the seven central banks that represent the largest currencies by trading volume in the world.
They have all signed up to this initiative to do cross-border payments, this concept of the unified ledger that the BIS has previously talked about.
In Singapore with the MAS announced in November of last year at Singapore Fintech Festival, the Global Layer One Initiative, which is also really interesting.
I the G3 are involved in that. JP Morgan is involved.
And then there are private initiatives like Partior, which is a cross -border platform that is, again, JP/ Temasek backed initiative out of Singapore.
Then there’s the, I have two more, the Regulated Liability Network, which is Citibank’s initiative, Tony McLaughlin sort of being the godfather of that over in their digital asset department.
And the US equivalent again backed by Citibank, but with a host of other banks involved called the Regulated Settlement Network…same thing, different name.
And then Canton, this recently announced layer one, which is public permission blockchain, has many of features that look like it can also facilitate exactly the same use cases, but coming entirely from the private sector, but with this notion of a governance structure that makes sense in this particular context.
Ian:
And Switzerland is still winning the race, despite…
David:
So despite all of this, so also clearly everyone is carrying out POCs and experiments.
And then the ECB has three experiments around this as well.
Ian:
But nobody has built exactly what we have built in Switzerland.
David:
As far as a Western developed economy, there’s nowhere else in the world where you have security transactions in wholesale CBDC, where in a production environment you have the central bank issuing tokenized central bank money.
And the fact that they’ve now made that statement that this will…they’ll continue to support this and issue central bank money on chain in two years, expand the scope, include more members…
That’s a huge statement.
And actually, not just means that Switzerland stands at the front, but I believe that that really pushes us ahead.
And it’s something which is hard to replicate. just because we’ve achieved so much and we’ve built so much already.
But the structure in Switzerland between the Swiss National Bank, as mentioned earlier, this mutualized infrastructure, which is member-owned, the relationship between SIX and the SNB, I think that’s a private-public partnership, already entails our support for the RTGS platform that the SNB operates, the repo platform the SNB operates, and also having a regulator such as FINMA and having informed individuals over there.
I think we have regular constructed dialogues with the likes of Matthias Olbrecht on the FinTech Desk there, really informed individuals who are themselves, I think, pioneers in this field.
The individuals and as well as the organizations that they work for, that capacity, that capability, and that pioneering perspective and that awareness to maintain our edge as a center of financial services that provide the most innovative but also the most safe and secure and trusted services in the world as Switzerland…
That does require that we are pioneers in this new space and we are pushing forward to these new horizons.
And it’s very, very satisfying to see that demonstrably that is the case.
Ian:
Definitely. definitely.
We have one question left. We ask every guest that comes on the podcast.
Is there something both at SDX or more broadly in the market that is happening that people aren’t talking about, that you can think of, maybe give us a hint to watch out for in the next 6, 9, 12 months.
Something that will be very interesting to see develop.
David:
Well, I talked about how it feels like there’s been this sea change and the visible manifestations of that, think, are Circle being granted an e-money license in Europe – the largest economy in the world, largest market in the world, now regulated through MiCA.
The CBDC initiatives here in Switzerland, these are visible indicators of something that’s happening.
What we’re feeling at SDX as a result of the momentum that we’ve seen following the announcements and the background, sort of the tailwinds from the adoption of assets more broadly, but also the support of our stakeholders such as the SNB and our members.
The flurry of new onboardings we’re having at the moment, what we’re seeing different about the conversations we’re having now is that our members are bringing us use cases that they want to actually leverage our blockchain to deploy, to actually further their own digital ambitions.
So it’s no longer the case that we are trying to persuade people that there’s something special about blockchain and that now “Why is a digital bond better than a traditional bond?”
That conversation has changed to “I see that you have digital bonds available on-chain, you have a central bank digital currency available on-chain within the context ofwhat you can provide to the market I want to be able to facilitate these use cases, I have this requirement for you guys to actually do, to actually enable me to take advantage of…”
And they are around collateral mobility and fractionalization.
So being able to hold fractions of assets in customer accounts, which we can do.
So our CSD has unlimited capacity for sub-accounts, numbers of sub-accounts on the ledger.
Instruments that previously have been too lumpy, so the minimum size to hold has been too large, those can be fractionalized on our blockchain, on a piece of mutualized infrastructure – and then provided into and then held at the sub-account level so that you can actually enable new instruments to be held by customers – which as an asset manager previously you couldn’t do.
Again, then following on from that, there’s a whole bunch of other use cases that come out of that as well around programmability.
So you can then manage the distribution of assets held in a portfolio based upon a number of parameters which you can program onto the blockchain which will then automatically manage the holdings, these fractions and then the programmability.
They begin to see how the natively inherent functions of the blockchain are being exploited by our new members who are coming on board.
And I believe in the next six to twelve months, we’ll begin to see production implementations and examples of totally new innovative solutions being provided to ultimately the underlying investor.
And that also comes in a cost-effective fashion.
So we believe that that is where you really begin to see the benefits of all this building work that’s been done.
You’ll begin to see that superstructure of the skyscraper in all its gleaming glory begin to sort of appear having done all this hard work of building the foundations.
That’s been carried out over the last five, six years here in Switzerland.
Ian:
Super – very, very interesting. We’ll be looking for that.
David Newns, thank you very much.